A pubber's word Options

[DreamerForever]

First, greetings all, I'm a pub player who has several years of experience in DotA. I'm a total pubber since I never played structured DotA in any form, no CW, no IH, not even TDA games, but only BattleNet pub games. I own with some heroes, while get owned often with some others, I'm better than a good number of noobs, but I'm still a noob myself.

The purpose of this posting is to share some of my personal opinions on the game. Yes, it's just some personal thought, I don't represent anyone other than myself, and I'm only one among thousands of DotA player. However, there might be some people sharing the same ideas, so I decide to write something for part of the DotA community.

Notice that it is not a complaint in any form, but rather a support to those who are developing the game, and those who care about the game.

About my gaming background, I started to play RTS games about 10 years ago, and I didn't like Starcraft much. I loved Warcraft III when it was first released partly because of the new concept: Heroes. However, the more I play, the less I like the game in itself because it is so short that most heroes end below lv6, and they can't even learn their Ultimate; also, the items that you can use are just basic, in most games, you won't ever have the money to buy nice items such as Mask of Death, Orb of Frost, etc; and the gameplay just stabilizes, the same strategy is used again and again. I started to create personal maps with Godly heroes and Godly items since then.

One day, a friend introduced me to DotA. I immediately liked the game, even though it is somewhat complex for a starter, because it offers nearly everything I want.
- It offers a good quantity of hero choice
- It offers different item builds (and some are godly)
- It has unlimited possibilities for combo
- It has more people playing in a game and you can enjoy playing the game with friends
- It has developers who are constantly updating the map
But due to the fact that AI maps didn't exist back then and I don't know many people who play it, I only started to play it regularly a year after that (in 2006)

The reason I kept playing pub is that pub is way more interesting than structured DotA games IMO. In pub, the possibilities are really limitless unlike in CW, IH or other competitive DotA games. In more structured games, the same heroes are picked again and again (recent examples are like Warlock, BM, etc), same strategy, same item builds, and it gets boring for me (Yeah, I do watch competitive replays regularly, and know what I'm talking).

In pub however, is much different. You can try everything you want, item builds, hero combos, anything. You won't get flamed because you're VS and you didn't buy ward for your team, you could still own with a Deso DP, and you won't get LOLed with a Refresher Jugger (well you will still get LOLed at but can sometimes go beyond godlike and win the game for your team). Also, you get all kind of funny situation in pub games. I remember a time when everyone left and only me and an ally AM were still in that game. He got all leaver items and wanted to get leaver kills. But I was, well, Chen ... and I started to patrol around enemy base. Whenever he gets in range, I just send him back to fountain ... and after 10 min, he got pissed off and left xD. I can also choose to Farm with a CM until lategame (LOL) just because I don't feel like to win. That's the fun of pub, and in competitive DotA, you won't ever experience that.

Also, when you enter BN and go under Custom Games, you would see more than half of them are DotA games. I do get sad sometimes when I see "fuck off all you pubbers", "who cares about pub", "stop playing pub man", etc because whether you want to believe or not, there is a large number of people playing pub, and those people are the same as those who are playing competitive DotA, they have their right on the game.

Recently, the changes made to the DotA map suggest shorter games (Change on Drow, implying early-mid game dominance; nerf on late game heroes like spectre/void/tb; implementation of stifling dagger on PA implying early ganks; remake of Lycan's skills, etc). Also teamfights take place more often, reducing the possibility of 1on1, thus making chaser heroes much less useful (BH, BS, old Lycan, etc). It is more viable for competitive plays, but somewhat less fun in pub. The truth is, not everyone would be able to play competitive games, and not everyone is willing to play competitive DotA, some people just want to remain pubber. If no ones care about these people, what are they gonna do?

I have seen lot of complaints recently on the forum. I understand that it is not fun when one's favorite heroes kept getting nerfed (that was my case with Drow, Spec, Naga, QoP, PotM, etc), and it is not fun either when one's favorite heroes don't get buffed (PA, Bone, AM, etc), but that's life. I'm no one to judge anybody. But I think that we need to understand that IceFrog and his team can't satisfy everyone, they are human. They try to improve the game, but sometimes they do some errors, and that's perfectly fine. What we, as DotA players should do is gave them sometimes, make constructive suggestions (notice it is suggestion, not order) instead of keep complaining (things like OMG fucking imba, I'm going to quit DotA). If some are not satisfied with the changes, while you might want to try to sign-up for beta-testers. Another suggestion is to try different heroes, there are over 90 heroes that people can try (including the IMBA heroes like when Spec was first remade, PotM when she was first out, etc even the IMBA CLOCKWERK right now).

At last, full support to the Devs. Thanks for the time and effort that you guys put into this wonderful game. And if possible, please also do consider about the people who don't play competitive games, and take into account some suggestions from the community. You guys are doing great.

[johndoe789]

I feel you man.

[_crazy_dogg_]

And I'm sharing you ideas too. I'm also more of a pubber than competitive dota player but i do here and there play some compet. games.

This post has been edited by _crazy_dogg_: Jul 15 2008, 11:34 AM

[mystic23]

It's nice to read such a well phrased point of view on public games. I've played both IH's and CW games but also indulge in public games. I feel the difference is a matter of concentration. If I want a serious game to challenge my level of play, I look towards IHs and CWs, but for a fun, relaxed game, "pubs" are the place to be. I hate it when people bash public games or respond to a post with "stop playing pubs". I agree with you that most people do play public games and that is not a trend that will change anytime soon.

Public games are the place to resurrect hero builds that were made to be fun. Going battle Lina or Dagon Clinkz is great when you play with some friends and you just laugh your ass off when you start picking people off in the woods.

I think of it like when you play a sport. You're going to play in competitions where there are exact calculated ways to win but you will also casually play with your friends on the weekends. There is no reason you have to choose one over the other.

[DreamerForever]

Well ... seems that lot of people just can't understand ...

[Ma_Da_Ra]

without pubs DotA is nothing. believe me.

[bluestinger]

DotA began with pubs. They are here to stay. I myself am a pubber, but I may try some more competetive games in the future, once I find a hero that I really can use well.

[Falling_Flower]

I think you are absolutely right public games and competitive games offer different, but still delicious, flavors of a core concept.

The reason a lot of pub players end up getting flamed with stuff like "stop playing pubs" is that they end up taking their exclusively public game experience and using it to try and justify game changes or viewpoints for the entirety of the dota world. For example "omg Spirit breaker is imbalanced" etc. etc.

Icefrog has to pick, when he balances, whether to make the game more entry level friendly and "fun" or whether to make it require more thought and investment. I am happy to say that usually he picks balancing in favor of "serious gaming" instead of dumbing the game down so its fun and easy but transient and quickly stale because their is little room to grow in. Case in point: pubs because yeah frankly in most of them any build does work but does not having to try make it fun?

This post has been edited by Falling_Flower: Jul 15 2008, 05:40 PM

[deano1123]

To the OP. Awesome write up man, couldn't agree more.

[eK\\underground]

nice post
i quit dota for 2 years and have starting playing a bit again
I used to play in a clan/ihl/tda, and i must say that skill level in pubs (stictly for -sd and -rd games) has gone up dramatically. id say 6/10 ppl in a average -rd/-sd game on bnet have pretty good/decent ability

[eMd]

Lol that was beautiful man

right now; recently ive been pubbing alot ( with occasional IH and TDA games here and there ) but the reason is cause my friends pub and to me friends + dota is alotta fun especially those "stupid" situations happens in a pub.

before all this pubbing occured i used to be a part of a clan who always participated in "structured" games. Yes they were fun and intense but after sometime i got bored of it, partly cause of what you said. It was too structured, you would get scolded if you didnt get this + this with this hero bla bla bla. I frankly enjoy the "chaos" of a pub game ( not the leavers though, leavers/ruiners suck )

its really nice to see a very well structured opinion piece that does not only push the gamers of dota for a nicer more well mannered act but also shows our appricition for the makers.

[lilpoptart116]

To the OP. Awesome write up man, couldn't agree more.

Concur.
Well said DreamerForever. We need more of these supportive threads and less "OMFG Imba!" threads on DA.

[Gashtunken]

I'm a pub player myself, but probably because I'm not that good haha. Generally the pub atmosphere is a lot more fun I've found with games though. Good post.

[StealthFire]

you'll rarely find challenging and fulfilling games in pubs. especially with pub community, leavers, QQers, etc.

[neverevermore]

Yeah, sure, it's fun to try random strategy. But, there are leavers coming out of every plausible orifice in a public game. tbh, noone is really that pro in TDA games, but there are less leavers (but more arrogant turkeys). Give them a try.

This post has been edited by neverevermore: Jul 15 2008, 09:09 PM

[DreamerForever]

Well pub has its pros and cons

The Cons are mostly,
- DAMN FUCKING LEAVERS!
- Same for Maphackers (and those two really ruin games)
- Nearly no team coordination
- etc etc

However, you do get other interesting stuffs. For example, some noob-pretending pros who owns beyond godlike, some pro-pretending noobs who gets owned beyond godlike. You have ppl chatting and forgetting the game, you have ppl focusing on the game and don't even say one word (I generally hate those ppl, sometimes I just wonder if they dont speak English or what but when the game nearly ends they start to flaming >.<). I remember a guy who, just before the game starts asked: "do I get kicked because I'm noob?" then second later, "xxx has left the game". Me and my friend really LOLed at that.

Anyways, that's pub, you get those fun moments there. Thus I think pub is worth playing really.

And I'm glad enough that even though the game is moving towards more structured plays, Ice still take pub into consideration. (Void could be a perfect example, even though he's a little overnerfed )

So come on ppl, just enjoy the game as it is, be tolerable and patient with the changes ~

[bundy_rum]

every dota player has played over half their games as pubs, that, however, does not mean they are good. I find pubs very frustrating and as time goes on they become easier and easier. Having a clan where we can scrim (rarely) and -sp in games helps as it adds to the challenge, playing agianst competent people.

[Cetarius]

First, greetings all, I'm a pub player who has several years of experience in DotA. I'm a total pubber since I never played structured DotA in any form, no CW, no IH, not even TDA games, but only BattleNet pub games. I own with some heroes, while get owned often with some others, I'm better than a good number of noobs, but I'm still a noob myself.

The purpose of this posting is to share some of my personal opinions on the game. Yes, it's just some personal thought, I don't represent anyone other than myself, and I'm only one among thousands of DotA player. However, there might be some people sharing the same ideas, so I decide to write something for part of the DotA community.

Notice that it is not a complaint in any form, but rather a support to those who are developing the game, and those who care about the game.

About my gaming background, I started to play RTS games about 10 years ago, and I didn't like Starcraft much. I loved Warcraft III when it was first released partly because of the new concept: Heroes. However, the more I play, the less I like the game in itself because it is so short that most heroes end below lv6, and they can't even learn their Ultimate; also, the items that you can use are just basic, in most games, you won't ever have the money to buy nice items such as Mask of Death, Orb of Frost, etc; and the gameplay just stabilizes, the same strategy is used again and again. I started to create personal maps with Godly heroes and Godly items since then.

One day, a friend introduced me to DotA. I immediately liked the game, even though it is somewhat complex for a starter, because it offers nearly everything I want.
- It offers a good quantity of hero choice
- It offers different item builds (and some are godly)
- It has unlimited possibilities for combo
- It has more people playing in a game and you can enjoy playing the game with friends
- It has developers who are constantly updating the map
But due to the fact that AI maps didn't exist back then and I don't know many people who play it, I only started to play it regularly a year after that (in 2006)

The reason I kept playing pub is that pub is way more interesting than structured DotA games IMO. In pub, the possibilities are really limitless unlike in CW, IH or other competitive DotA games. In more structured games, the same heroes are picked again and again (recent examples are like Warlock, BM, etc), same strategy, same item builds, and it gets boring for me (Yeah, I do watch competitive replays regularly, and know what I'm talking).

In pub however, is much different. You can try everything you want, item builds, hero combos, anything. You won't get flamed because you're VS and you didn't buy ward for your team, you could still own with a Deso DP, and you won't get LOLed with a Refresher Jugger (well you will still get LOLed at but can sometimes go beyond godlike and win the game for your team). Also, you get all kind of funny situation in pub games. I remember a time when everyone left and only me and an ally AM were still in that game. He got all leaver items and wanted to get leaver kills. But I was, well, Chen ... and I started to patrol around enemy base. Whenever he gets in range, I just send him back to fountain ... and after 10 min, he got pissed off and left xD. I can also choose to Farm with a CM until lategame (LOL) just because I don't feel like to win. That's the fun of pub, and in competitive DotA, you won't ever experience that.

Also, when you enter BN and go under Custom Games, you would see more than half of them are DotA games. I do get sad sometimes when I see "fuck off all you pubbers", "who cares about pub", "stop playing pub man", etc because whether you want to believe or not, there is a large number of people playing pub, and those people are the same as those who are playing competitive DotA, they have their right on the game.

Recently, the changes made to the DotA map suggest shorter games (Change on Drow, implying early-mid game dominance; nerf on late game heroes like spectre/void/tb; implementation of stifling dagger on PA implying early ganks; remake of Lycan's skills, etc). Also teamfights take place more often, reducing the possibility of 1on1, thus making chaser heroes much less useful (BH, BS, old Lycan, etc). It is more viable for competitive plays, but somewhat less fun in pub. The truth is, not everyone would be able to play competitive games, and not everyone is willing to play competitive DotA, some people just want to remain pubber. If no ones care about these people, what are they gonna do?

I have seen lot of complaints recently on the forum. I understand that it is not fun when one's favorite heroes kept getting nerfed (that was my case with Drow, Spec, Naga, QoP, PotM, etc), and it is not fun either when one's favorite heroes don't get buffed (PA, Bone, AM, etc), but that's life. I'm no one to judge anybody. But I think that we need to understand that IceFrog and his team can't satisfy everyone, they are human. They try to improve the game, but sometimes they do some errors, and that's perfectly fine. What we, as DotA players should do is gave them sometimes, make constructive suggestions (notice it is suggestion, not order) instead of keep complaining (things like OMG fucking imba, I'm going to quit DotA). If some are not satisfied with the changes, while you might want to try to sign-up for beta-testers. Another suggestion is to try different heroes, there are over 90 heroes that people can try (including the IMBA heroes like when Spec was first remade, PotM when she was first out, etc even the IMBA CLOCKWERK right now).

At last, full support to the Devs. Thanks for the time and effort that you guys put into this wonderful game. And if possible, please also do consider about the people who don't play competitive games, and take into account some suggestions from the community. You guys are doing great.

Long post, took quite a bit of reading I must admit.

Re: fave heroes getting nerfed. Often there is a reason why they are "faves". Often that relates to their relative usefulness and "power". Adjustments are made to encourage players to try out different heroes in differing combos. And this helps to keep the game evolving and keep it fresh. Sure it's annoying. But ultimately I think it is good for the game.

Re: the attitudes towards pubs. It is unfortunate that some pubs are so bad (OK...maybe about half...maybe more), that they set a bad image for every other pub. And then people start to generalise. And that's when all pubs get lumped into the category "useless noobs". But consider this...even some ih players and clan players and league players play some pubs at times...assuming they're decent in these games, surely they wouldn't suddenly be "noob" in a pub game? The problem with pub games is that they often lack teamwork, and make people seem to be worse than what their skill really is. And then when people make wild generalisations, such attitudes creep in and become prevalent. Shame really. But not much one can do, except to explain it and hope for some understanding...

Re: the changes to the game that tilt it in favour of competitive play. I agree - your point about the game being more oriented towards team play with each version is definitely valid IMO. There is good and bad to this. I have pointed out in another thread that it is the competitive games that bring "glory" and "recognition" to DotA - and this it is important to ensure that this element of play is done up very well in order to ensure that DotA remains a "household name". However, I also pointed out in that post that while it is the competitive games that often draw many people to play DotA, most of these people will play predominantly, or only, pub games. And given that pub games is often the opposite of competitive play (eg no team work vs team work), the current trend is definitely detrimental to pub play (and thus to the style of play that is probably the most common in the world - I daresay that pub games outnumber competitive games!). I have suggested several times previously that one way of addressing this divergence between pub play and competitive play would be to have two different modes with balancing for each style of play respectively - ie balancing for competitive play happening as it does now (since the game is pretty much being balanced for leagues), and another mode where the game is more balanced to take into account the lack of teamwork in pubs. Will this every happen? In the short term, probably not. And more the shame this will be IMHO.

Re: the criticisms on the forum boards. I agree again here - criticism that is negative eg "I hate you Icefrog because of ..." and "I'm not going to play DotA anymore because ..." etc etc is not very constructive. It is not surprising to find a variety of opinions on various issues of balance, and it should not be surprising that some people like it, and others don't. It should also not be surprising that sometimes changes are made that are probably not the most ideal changes. Criticism of these is important in order to help the game improve IMO, but it is equally important that such is given in a constructive manner...

[Mercury-]

I too love games filled with leavers, spammers, flamers and completes dicks. I sure do love pubs <3

[King of stamford]

I 2 play mostly pubs and there r some very good games but today i got so pissed off i was terror jungling from lvl1 and in about 35 min i had 8k(i didnt gone back whole time just got few items with chicken) and then Host left. No comment