The Rise and Fall of Anime Fansubs, Docu-rantary Options

[ZeLinK]

If people are so concerned about preserving impact fansubs would become the jokesubs that are in the video. The differences between anta, anata, omae, kimi, temee, danna and kisama are significant. So are the differences between ore, boku, atashi, watakushi, watashi, and washi. So why aren't those translated? If fansubbers can simply replace them with "I" and "you" but change the tone of the sentence, why not do the same thing with the honorifics?

Um... The differences between the many different forms of "I" and "you" aren't translated anyway... The only time the tone of the sentence is different is when aitsu/koitsu/kisama etc are used, because they're considered rude. Name one subber that has translated boku differently to ore (even by using different sentence tone)?

That aside, the differences between how a person refers to someone else can be explained with TL notes (and yes they can be attached to a separate document). And yes, honorifics can also be explained with notes, but the difference is honorifics change from person to person, but very rarely will a person change their own speech mannerisms. (e.g. a person will generally always refer to themselves as "ore" or "boku" or whatever, but other people can refer to that same person with different honorifics).

Not only that, but translating a sentence like "Konnichi wa Yamada-shachou" without it either losing its impact or sounding stupid is not possible. In an English speaking show you might explain at some later point that a particular person has X role in the company, whereas in an anime that doesn't necessarily happen because it's explained by the honorific given to them.

Now this one is just wrong. I'd rather see a "KAGE BUNSHIN NO JUTSU" than "SHADOW CLONING TECHNIQUE". Certain things just sound dumb when translated into English - most significantly the exact things you mentioned. Translating "Akihabara" as "Autumn Leaf Field"? "Kyoto" as "Capital" (oh gee how original)? "Tokyo" as "Eastern Capital"? No. Way.

Um.... I don't really see how "shadow cloning technique" can sound 'stupid' in one language, but good in another... If it's what they're saying, it's what they're saying...

And I shouldn't have said places, I was thinking places as in shrines and temples which are sometimes left untranslated for some reason. What I should have said was certain objects and events. e.g. I've seen people not translate things like matsuri and jinja, which makes no sense to me.

There are also some things that should be left untranslated. The biggest example of this is sushi. This guy is a hypocrite if he doesn't translate "sushi" as "vinegared rice topped with other ingredients like fish, meat and/or vegetables" since sushi is not an English word, and I'm willing to bet that he doesn't translate it, either. The same goes for things like Karate, Aikido, etc. While people do know what these are, they're not English words, so technically they should be translated, which is... just stupid...

I remember at one point in that 'documentary', he pointed out how the subbers of Claymore should call 'yoki' something like 'demonic energy' and that made me rofl. Series-specific phrases are another thing that shouldn't be translated.




To sum it up, there are some things that should not be translated, and some things that should. Honorifics are one of the things that shouldn't be translated. Having everything in English makes absolutely no sense.


EDIT: I don't know where you got the idea that I'm suggesting it shouldn't be translated because it's degrading the Japanese language. And I don't think any fansubbers actually think the Japanese language is sacred like the guy in the documentary is saying. I'm suggesting that certain things should not be translated either for ease of understanding (e.g. even though sushi and soba aren't English words, they don't necessarily need to be translated into English) or because there's no 'fluid' translation in English (e.g. honorifics and some other Japanese terms that don't have a short, explainable meaning in English).

I'd be interested to see how the guy who made those videos translates sentences like "senpai" and words like "sushi" and "tsundere", considering he claims to be a professional subber.

This post has been edited by ZeLinK: May 29 2008, 03:47 PM

[[ Zero ]]

I have been trolled.

[Sasaki-]

Protip:

2)Learn Japanese and watch raws

[Pumxie]

There are a few things:

1. If you don't like the fansub, why watch it? There are multiple fansubs for a given anime, and if you don't like any of them, watch the raw then.

2. This is the wrong forum to be giving criticism about fansubs. If you actually wanted your voice to make a difference, you would post this elsewhere.

3. You can watch fansubs with plain subtitles by downloading the mkv version of the anime, and then loading it using SMPlayer or VLC. These do not parse subtitle fonts and will just display all subtitles in plain black and white.

4. Fansubs add karaoke to the opening and endings because the viewer has the option of watching both raw if he/she wanted to watch it.

5. If you think current fansubs are so terrible, start your own fansub group.

[serados]

Not only that, but translating a sentence like "Konnichi wa Yamada-shachou" without it either losing its impact or sounding stupid is not possible. In an English speaking show you might explain at some later point that a particular person has X role in the company, whereas in an anime that doesn't necessarily happen because it's explained by the honorific given to them.

"Good afternoon, Mr Yamada." No problem there.

And you summed up my point on "I" and "you" because THEY SIMPLY BECOME "I" OR "YOU" but somehow honorifics must be left in.

Um.... I don't really see how "shadow cloning technique" can sound 'stupid' in one language, but good in another... If it's what they're saying, it's what they're saying...

Keeps the "exoticness" intact.

There are also some things that should be left untranslated. The biggest example of this is sushi. This guy is a hypocrite if he doesn't translate "sushi" as "vinegared rice topped with other ingredients like fish, meat and/or vegetables" since sushi is not an English word, and I'm willing to bet that he doesn't translate it, either. The same goes for things like Karate, Aikido, etc. While people do know what these are, they're not English words, so technically they should be translated, which is... just stupid...

These words have basically been assimilated into the English language, and have their pronunciations butchered by clever English speakers. "Ka ra o ke" into "keriokey"? WTF? "Ka ra te" into "keratey"?

I remember at one point in that 'documentary', he pointed out how the subbers of Claymore should call 'yoki' something like 'demonic energy' and that made me rofl. Series-specific phrases are another thing that shouldn't be translated.

Yes.

EDIT: I don't know where you got the idea that I'm suggesting it shouldn't be translated because it's degrading the Japanese language.

Not you.

I don't think many people here understand the aim of a translation, but what fansubbers are doing now is here to stay, karaoke and all so BAWWW.

There are a few things:

1. If you don't like the fansub, why watch it? There are multiple fansubs for a given anime, and if you don't like any of them, watch the raw then.

2. This is the wrong forum to be giving criticism about fansubs. If you actually wanted your voice to make a difference, you would post this elsewhere.

3. You can watch fansubs with plain subtitles by downloading the mkv version of the anime, and then loading it using SMPlayer or VLC. These do not parse subtitle fonts and will just display all subtitles in plain black and white.

4. Fansubs add karaoke to the opening and endings because the viewer has the option of watching both raw if he/she wanted to watch it.

5. If you think current fansubs are so terrible, start your own fansub group.

1. No shit that's why I don't watch Nyoron.
2. Mmm. What if I just want to BAWW?
3. You must be shitting me by saying VLC. I don't know anything about SMPlayer.
4. Where? On Youtube?
5. Nice comeback.

This post has been edited by serados: May 29 2008, 07:30 PM

[ZeLinK]

"Good afternoon, Mr Yamada." No problem there.

And you summed up my point on "I" and "you" because THEY SIMPLY BECOME "I" OR "YOU" but somehow honorifics must be left in.

Ah, I don't think you're reading and understanding what's being said. The differences between the many forms of I and you don't actually make that much of a difference in conversations. The differences between honorifics make a huge difference. I gave plenty of examples why, and I even told you why you and I are only sometimes translated different using tone...

"Mr. Yamada" is nowhere near the same as "Yamada-shachou". It loses meaning. The viewer doesn't know the significance of the person being greeted, unless at some other stage someone says "That person is the company president", which generally wouldn't happen since the title -shachou gives it away...

Keeps the "exoticness" intact.

Uh....... OK then

These words have basically been assimilated into the English language, and have their pronunciations butchered by clever English speakers. "Ka ra o ke" into "keriokey"? WTF? "Ka ra te" into "keratey"?

Why are sushi, karate and karaoke so sacred? Is it that translators don't want to tarnish the Japanese language by translating them into English?????????? Translators from now on should just translate these terms into English words because it makes no sense to have Japanese words in an English translation.

Also, thinking back on it, translators should also translate the meaning of places. I don't know what a "Tokyo" is........... It's not an English word. It should be translated for me. No Japanese terms in my subtitles please...

[serados]

I checked back on my post and realised I made a crucial typo.

If people are so concerned about preserving impact fansubs would become the jokesubs that are in the video. The differences between anta, anata, omae, kimi, temee, danna and kisama are significant. So are the differences between ore, boku, atashi, watakushi, watashi, and washi. So why are those translated? If fansubbers can simply replace them with "I" and "you" but change the tone of the sentence, why not do the same thing with the honorifics?

"Mr. Yamada" is nowhere near the same as "Yamada-shachou". It loses meaning. The viewer doesn't know the significance of the person being greeted, unless at some other stage someone says "That person is the company president", which generally wouldn't happen since the title -shachou gives it away...

"President Yamada", "Chairman Yamada", or even just "Boss". I've never seen any group leave "-shachou" untranslated.

The interesting thing here is, why aren't the honorifics in video games, novels, and other media left in while anime and manga fans demand the presence of the honorifics in their subs? Fansubs cater to this group of people who do want the honorifics in, so that's it. End of story. Honorifics are here to stay in fansubs so stop rambling about it already.

If you really want to argue about the importance of said honorifics and the subsequent loss of meaning then why the hell aren't professional translators, who probably know more about the language and the layers of meaning than the average fansub-watching weaboo, doing it? That's the more intriguing question here. Refer:

What if Murakami Haruki novels came translated with honorifics? Did you see the example of Final Fantasy VII in part 3 of the video? Do you think the FFVII US translation "degraded" the Japanese language? Are the translators that worked on Murakami novels "humiliating" the Japanese language by removing honorifics?

Why are sushi, karate and karaoke so sacred? Is it that translators don't want to tarnish the Japanese language by translating them into English?????????? Translators from now on should just translate these terms into English words because it makes no sense to have Japanese words in an English translation.

Refer:

These words have basically been assimilated into the English language

This post has been edited by serados: May 30 2008, 12:09 AM

[ZeLinK]

The interesting thing here is, why aren't the honorifics in video games, novels, and other media left in while anime and manga fans demand the presence of the honorifics in their subs? Fansubs cater to this group of people who do want the honorifics in, so that's it. End of story. Honorifics are here to stay in fansubs so stop rambling about it already.

If you really want to argue about the importance of said honorifics and the subsequent loss of meaning then why the hell aren't professional translators, who probably know more about the language and the layers of meaning than the average fansub-watching weaboo, doing it? That's the more intriguing question here.

I know the reason they remove the honorifics, but I'm saying it loses meaning. How can it not lose meaning if it's loosely translated to best fit?

And my point on the use of honorifics is that the way people speak in English is completely different to the way people speak in Japan. You don't get people greeting their boss with "Chairman Yamada", they'd say "Mr. Yamada"... If you want it to sound right in English and drop the honorific, then it loses its meaning.

I'll go over it all again....

If someone plainly says "senpai", you can't translate it into an English phrase that makes sense because it doesn't occur in the English language. They're not calling them by name ("x-senpai"), they're just plainly saying senpai. It doesn't happen in English, so changing what's being said to loosely fit makes no sense.

PS: Appeal to authority is a fallacy.

These words have basically been assimilated into the English language

Why are they part of our language? Isn't that the fault of some shitty translator who couldn't translate from Japanese to English? Why are some terms OK not to translate? Did they decide sushi was a sacred word that couldn't be translated? That must be it right. Because it was never translated it's a sacred word.... Yeah, that sounds right.

Assimilated words aside, how would you translate tsundere, yandere, etc? Those aren't terms that are part of our language, and they're not easily translated without confusing the viewer or being extremely long...

This post has been edited by ZeLinK: May 30 2008, 01:46 AM

[serados]

I have said it over and over again: fansubs are targeted at an audience who should know the meanings of the honorifics and hence including them is something that is fine.

Professional translations are for the general audience whose knowledge can be assumed to be that of a layman, so from Otaking's point of view doing that sacrifices the readability and accessibility of a translation.

Second, I have said that a translation will always lose some of its meaning no matter how skillful the translation is, and if you insist on retaining all of the original meaning and nuances it will end up being the jokesubs found in the video.

I suggest reading this to see how the two sides are equally valid. Why are you still going on insisting how honorifics MUST be included because there will be "lost meaning"?

I also suggest reading up on the occasions when appeal to authority is a fallacy.

Why are they part of our language? Isn't that the fault of some shitty translator who couldn't translate from Japanese to English? Why are some terms OK not to translate? Did they decide sushi was a sacred word that couldn't be translated? That must be it right. Because it was never translated it's a sacred word.... Yeah, that sounds right.

Because language is a living thing. When a word is used enough it gets integrated into the language and hence no longer requires a translation. Plenty of English words were loanwords that ended up being "English" words.

Assimilated words aside, how would you translate tsundere, yandere, etc? Those aren't terms that are part of our language, and they're not easily translated without confusing the viewer or being extremely long...

Leave the headaches to the translators who are doing it to feed their families... accept their presence in fansubs.

Those aren't words commonly used in shows, and when they do come out you can do something like "aloof yet clingy". Is meaning lost? Sure. But if you didn't know what "tsundere" meant in the first place, would you enjoy the show less? Probably not.

This post has been edited by serados: May 30 2008, 02:31 AM

[ZeLinK]

I have said it over and over again: fansubs are targeted at an audience who should know the meanings of the honorifics and hence including them is something that is fine.

Professional translations are for the general audience whose knowledge can be assumed to be that of a layman, so from Otaking's point of view doing that sacrifices the readability and accessibility of a translation.

Second, I have said that a translation will always lose some of its meaning no matter how skillful the translation is, and if you insist on retaining all of the original meaning and nuances it will end up being the jokesubs found in the video.

I suggest reading this to see how the two sides are equally valid. Why are you still going on insisting how honorifics MUST be included because there will be "lost meaning"?

I'm not saying honorifics must be used, I'm simply saying that dropping honorifics makes no sense because you sacrifice the original meaning or it becomes nonsensical in English.

And like I said from the beginning, I can understand why you would want it all in English... I was stating (and justifying) my opinion.

Because language is a living thing. When a word is used enough it gets integrated into the language and hence no longer requires a translation. Plenty of English words were loanwords that ended up being "English" words.

I dunno if you just missed the sarcasm or ignored it...

Anyway, at what point did "karaoke" become a word in the English language, and why was it never translated? Why was it OK not to translate karaoke? Why was it OK not to translate sushi?

Why is it not OK to leave other things untranslated? Why is it so right to have everything else translated into English despite losing its meaning, when you can look at precedents and see how it makes sense not to translate everything...?

Those aren't words commonly used in shows, and when they do come out you can do something like "aloof yet clingy". Is meaning lost? Sure. But if you didn't know what "tsundere" meant in the first place, would you enjoy the show less? Probably not.

That's really just one example of a term, and they're not really that rare. More common examples are terms like "moe" and "otaku"... I just chose tsundere/yandere in particular...

The other problem is that, for a term like "moe", different people are going to have different translations, and it'd be more confusing for a viewer.

If the only thing that matters is how much people enjoy watching the show, then just about everything said in that documentary is moot.

[NHP54]

Anyway, at what point did "karaoke" become a word in the English language, and why was it never translated? Why was it OK not to translate karaoke? Why was it OK not to translate sushi?

Why is it not OK to leave other things untranslated? Why is it so right to have everything else translated into English despite losing its meaning, when you can look at precedents and see how it makes sense not to translate everything...

Eh, I am going to go with Serados on this one. Again, going off what the Youtube guy said, people are making Japanese some sacred language. Things like sushi and karaoke are just part of the English language now. In addition, they are common words that anyone who speaks English should recognize. The point of the Youtube guy's video was that fansubbers just randomly pick and choose words they just want to explain to you because they can. The guy's opinion was translations should be smooth and straight to the point if possible. There is no need to clutter the screen with misc. information that is unnecessary to know about. For example, the word dinosaur is Latin for terrible lizard. You don't see people going around saying its literal meaning of terrible lizard, now do you? No, you wouldn't. English speakers just use the word dinosaur because it has become a part of the language. It is a borrowed word, just like how sushi and karaoke are borrowed words too. Language evolves.

[big_bad_shotgun]

Eh, I am going to go with Serados on this one. Again, going off what the Youtube guy said, people are making Japanese some sacred language. Things like sushi and karaoke are just part of the English language now. In addition, they are common words that anyone who speaks English should recognize. The point of the Youtube guy's video was that fansubbers just randomly pick and choose words they just want to explain to you because they can. The guy's opinion was translations should be smooth and straight to the point if possible. There is no need to clutter the screen with misc. information that is unnecessary to know about. For example, the word dinosaur is Latin for terrible lizard. You don't see people going around saying its literal meaning of terrible lizard, now do you? No, you wouldn't. English speakers just use the word dinosaur because it has become a part of the language. It is a borrowed word, just like how sushi and karaoke are borrowed words too. Language evolves.

that last part isn't entirely correct. The point of saying dinosaur instead of terrible lizard is that dinosaur is shorter.

hydrophobia is shorter than 'the fear of water.'

The latin language isn't the exception, we do it to all other languages. Sushi is shorter than 'raw fish wrapped in rice and seaweed.' Burrito is shorter than 'meat, beans, and other ingredients wrapped in a tortilla.'

[GoDSh0t]

The fact that you people generalize fansubs as a whole makes this entire argument redundant and false.

Enjoy your internet circle jerk thread.

SOMEONE: OH LOLFANSUBS SUX
SOMEONE ELSE: OH LOLSOTRUUUU
SOMEONE ELSE AGAIN: THOSE DARN'D FANSUBBERS
ME: :awesome:

[Momoku]

I'm not really in a position to complain, more of grateful for free subbing services. It's funny how people get to be so spoiled to even forget that we aren't paying for these.

[AuditionEX]

Superb.




...naught..

[About blank]

Last time I checked the reason fansubbers subbed anime so all you white kiddies can watch it is because they wanted to. Stop whining. Pay them if you want it done 'right' aka in your snobby aloof idea of 'good'. They don't get paid. This is NOT their profession. In fact, they don't owe you ANYTHING. nothing. zip. nada. Don't come around and start calling down the world because you don't like the shade of blue Ayako uses.
If you think they suck so much then sub your own fucking anime.

You are the leeches here. THANK THEM not complain. You have no right to complain.

[ZeLinK]

Eh, I am going to go with Serados on this one. Again, going off what the Youtube guy said, people are making Japanese some sacred language. Things like sushi and karaoke are just part of the English language now.

Did they decide sushi was a sacred word that couldn't be translated? That must be it right. Because it was never translated it's a sacred word.... Yeah, that sounds right.

The point of the Youtube guy's video was that fansubbers just randomly pick and choose words they just want to explain to you because they can.

Name one 'random' word. As far as I know, the only words that aren't translated are either series-specific words with special meaning, words that can't really be explained well in English (like moe, otaku, tsundere, etc) and honorifics.

[Challice]

I'm not really in a position to complain, more of grateful for free subbing services. It's funny how people get to be so spoiled to even forget that we aren't paying for these.

It's just the same as DotA npnp.

[ICallBotSolo]

"It used to be very hard to fansub back in the day, but today, anyone can fansub anime in about half an hour."
This guy has NO FUCKING CLUE AT ALL what he is talking about. I've fansubbed on "archaic" machinery, and I've fansubbed on modern systems, and the truth of the matter is, to produce mediocre quality fansubs now is *much* harder than producing mediocre quality fansubs then. It's not that tehcnology hasn't vastly improved, it's that all of the tehcnology has been put to use to create better and better subs, not easier to produce ones.

Previously, you would get some sort of Amiga to do video overlay. It wasn't hard to get ahold of a subtitling program. You would then overlay the output of the archaic machinery over the laserdisc reader, then record to VHS.

Of course, some things are easier. Mainly, it's easier to get ahold of raws. Somehow the advent of the internet and winny has made it much much easier than trying to import laserdiscs.

But really, that's it. In fact with the advent of typesetting, it's become *much* harder to fansub at a "mediocre" level. Also, with advances in timing and etc., it takes much more time to do anything properly.

Nowadays, you have to get ahold of a raw (this is *much* easier now than before), translate it, time it, fine time it, edit it, re-edit it, typeset it, karaoke timing, encode it, QC it, edit it again, encode, QC again as necessary, and then release.

Things like failing a QC due to low quality video was never a problem in the past. Also, if there were a mistranslation, no one would notice it. Also, it was *completely unheard of* to time the subtitles to scene changes instead of completely to the audio.

All in all, it takes roughly 20 manhours to subtitle a single episode of anime these days, at decent quality. (I could probably sub a single episode of something that was easy at very sub-par quality in about 6 manhours, minimum, doing as poor a job as possible on everything and not checking over my translation and leaving in grammar errors, etc.)

I raged after watching the first video and gave up. The guy's too stupid for me to listen to anymore.

[Tieria]

ITT: BBAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW and BUUUTTTHUUURRRT.

This post has been edited by Karasuhebi: May 30 2008, 08:55 PM